Talk:List of military occupations

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Golan Heights and East Jerusalem

The Israeli military does not control those areas (Israel itself does, like Tel Aviv). As such, there is no claim to these areas being occupied militarily. To quote the Wikipedia page for "military occupation": "Military occupation... is temporary hostile control exerted by a ruling power's military apparatus over a sovereign territory that is outside of the legal boundaries of that ruling power's own sovereign territory" A3811 (talk) 07:22, 27 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Please don't remove sourced content without giving a valid reason (the above doesn't qualify). M.Bitton (talk) 13:30, 27 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The sources are being misused. None of the source on the matter mention military occupation! There are no valid sources for military occupation in E Jlm A3811 (talk) 17:07, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@A3811: See Al Jazeera - “During the Six-Day War in 1967, Israel occupied the Golan Heights. It currently controls 1,200sq km (463sq miles) of the western part of the region. Almost immediately after the Israeli military occupied it, Israeli settlements began to grow. Today, more than 30 Israeli settlements are in the area, where more than 25,000 Jewish Israelis live.” + The New York Times “The Golan Heights Annexed By Israel In Abrupt Move”. There are sources. So, yes, there are valid sources for the Israeli occupation of the Golan Heights, which is the title of a Wikipedia article as well. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 17:10, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@WeatherWriter that source does not refer to military occupation. Military occupation is, according to Wikipedia, "hostile control exerted by a ruling power's military apparatus over a sovereign territory that is outside of the legal boundaries of that ruling power's own sovereign territory". However, the Golan is in the sovereign territory of Israel since its annexation. There are no source referring to it as military occupation - simply put, it is not.

Same goes for E Jlm A3811 (talk) 21:23, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@A3811: Foreign Policy: "Syrians in the Golan continue to live under Israeli military occupation as well." Source right there. Also, I am concerned that you stated the sources above "does not refer to military occupation" and that "There are no source referring to it as military occupation". I just listed one directly stating that. But more concerning is that the New York Times source above states "The area had been held under military occupation since Israel captured it from Syria in the 1967 war." As you have now directly claimed that sentence does not actually refer to military occupation, I would like you to explain what The New York Times meant with that sentence. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 21:37, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The NYT article was written in 1981. The Golan was indeed held under military occupation, (as the article states) from 1967, until 1981 - when it was annexed (the event the article is reporting). Since it was annexed it is of course not under military occupation. The sovereign is the State of Israel, it's not occupied by the IDF A3811 (talk) 16:06, 11 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"according to Wikipedia" is not a policy-based argument. Also, please read WP:NOTADVOCACY. Statements like "the Golan is in the sovereign territory of Israel since its annexation" presents the particular view of the Israeli government as if it is an objective fact. There is no policy-based reason for Wikipedia editors to do that on talk pages. Sean.hoyland (talk) 16:00, 11 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not done As you have given no policy-based reasons to remove the information, it shall not be removed from the article, as secondary reliable sources, as listed above, stated it is a military occupation. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 16:02, 11 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Which secondary reliable sources? You claimed a NYT article - which refered to military occupation of the Golan until 1981! Since then it is in Israel's sovereign territory - yes, objectively. The Israeli law defined that the Israeli law and sovereignty apply to the Golan. Just like the US deifined that American law applies to California, Alaska etc. The other source is an opinion article (and outdated - US recognized Golan).

But again, the main point is that is doesn't fit the definiton of military occupation! The criteria for inclusion here is "temporary hostile control exerted by a ruling power's military apparatus over a sovereign territory that is outside of the legal boundaries of that ruling power's own sovereign territory".

The Israeli control is not temporary - is has been defined in law. Is it also not controled by a "military apparatus" - it is under Israeli sovereignty, enforced by civil Law.

Legally speaking, the Golan is the same as Tel Aviv

Please respond to these remarks. Also see the discussion on the talk page for "Military occupation". A3811 (talk) 14:47, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@A3811: I'm new to this discussion:

The "temporary" attribute in some definitions of military occupation reflects the international desire to see an end to vestiges of military conflict. When a nation internationally recognized as being in military occupation of a territory claims to annex that territory, the international response is often to deem the annexation unacceptable, the occupation ongoing, and an acceptable end to the conflict still pending. (Exception: India's 1961 annexation of Goa and other districts.) Related: some prefer the term "provisional" over "temporary".
The "military" attribute reflects the means of enforcing effective control. The key is that the occupant continually "exercises the functions of government" (GCIV, Art 6). Local police maintaining control after an annexation that is not widely recognized could be viewed by the international community as performing a military role, despite where the organization fits in an org chart.
Different people have used international law to reach many different conclusions, including the legality of defensive conquest in 1967, but I haven't seen your arguments in reliable sources. However straightforward it might seem to apply international legal definitions to specific cases, doing so on your own without reliable sources is original research.

Dotyoyo (talk) 14:01, 22 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Historical occupation: Kursk

Ukrainian occupation of parts of Kursk Oblast (incl. Sudzha) is still ongoing so it should not be listed under "Historical Occupation." It is listed under "Ongoing Occupation" anyway. Redbeansoup (talk) 22:30, 12 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Beshogur (talk) 11:31, 13 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Redbeansoup (talk) 11:47, 13 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]